David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, February is American Heart Month, and I gotta say, is something so many of us already have on our minds after seeing Buffalo Bills, safety, Demar Hamlin go into cardiac arrest in week 17 of the NFL. I don't know about you. But it was pretty scary to know that Damar was receiving CPR right there on the field. But thank God, the medics were there to do it, because they saved his life. That's why today, I want to talk to Dr. Holly Anderson. She's a renowned cardiologist at New York Presbyterian Hospital, and the founder of the hands only CPR movement. She is on a mission to make sure everybody knows how to help someone in cardiac arrest. Because as you'll hear today, we can save a lot of lives if ordinary people like you and me know what to do when that happens. Unfortunately, most people don't. And it's not easy to create awareness and change that. But Holly is an extraordinary leader. She's passionate about this mission. And she knows how to leverage that passion in order to drive change and action. Now that's a skill every great leader needs to master. So let's get to it. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours. Dr. Holly Anderson.

Holly, you were raised in Hamburg, New York, which is 10 minutes away from where the Buffalo Bills play. I know you're a big time Bill's fan and you've endured four consecutive Super Bowl losses and in the 90s Do you ever think they'll win a Super Bowl?

Dr. Holly Andersen 1:58 

It's so hard to be a Bills fan. And yes, four years in a row was very tough. And their last game was too tough too. But I'm hoping

David Novak 2:06 

and speaking of the bills on January 2, I'm sure you are watching that game against the Bengals. When we saw Bill safety Damar Hamlin go down. Did you have any idea Holly on in terms of what was going on? And what were you thinking?

Dr. Holly Andersen 2:21 

I was watching and I didn't see him initially fall. But I knew exactly what was going on. I couldn't see what was going on behind the wall of people that was around him. But I knew they were doing CPR and trying to resuscitate him. And I was struck that so many people in the stadium and very seasoned commentators had no idea what was going on. They were really be miffed by this. And unfortunately, I've seen it way too often. And it is the number one cause of death for student athletes. Sudden cardiac arrest and it can strike seemingly healthy people of any age, often without warning. And when I saw the rerun, I saw that he really didn't take a hard hit right. He just fell down on a helmet right in his chest. And then he passed out a few seconds later, which goes along with something called Commotio Cordis when you get struck in the chest and there may be nothing wrong with his heart and he still went into cardiac arrest. But I'm so glad we we got him back and I'm so glad people knew what to do around him.

David Novak 3:23 

I bet you as a doctor watching this, you had to have this tremendous urge to just sprang into action. I mean, how did you feel?

Dr. Holly Andersen 3:30 

I was just happy that there was a stadium full of medics that knew what to do. I mean, it wasn't that long ago when I saw a mighty league basketball player left facedown on the court unresponsive with no one in the in the whole facility knowing what to do. And EMS arrived and took him but it was too late. You know he died and and his mother won a wrongful death suit against the league and there's just no reason for this. It's it's a message we have to get out that sudden cardiac arrest is very common, and everyone should know how to save a life. You know, I have a mission to try to increase bystander response to victims of sudden cardiac arrest.

David Novak 4:06 

Yeah, we're going to talk about that. And and when you think about Damar we were all on pins and needles waiting to find out if he was going to be okay. When we were told he was in critical condition. And he's now thankfully he's been discharged from the hospital, which has been a huge relief. What does rehab look like for a guy like Damar? Now,

Dr. Holly Andersen 4:27 

you know, I was really hopeful he would be okay because they did get to him really quickly. And typically, they call somebody down who's had a cardiac arrest and they sedate them. So it did take a while to find out if he was waking up and would be okay. I don't know the details. It sounds like they haven't found anything wrong with his heart which is great. He has a lot of you know, emotional, psychological and physical recovery to do physically he may be totally fine. They may not have found any kind of underlying heart condition, but you have to do a complete Heart workout making sure everything's okay. And some players do return to play after this. But this is football. This is very serious matter. I don't know the details, and I'm just hopeful he has a long healthy life.

David Novak 5:14 

By the way, as an aside, I have to ask you, did you see the bills kickoff return in their very next game.

Dr. Holly Andersen 5:20 

It was amazing. And I was actually in the Buffalo airport, because I just been there and the whole place erupted.

David Novak 5:26 

You know, Josh Allen, your your big favorite air, you know, he was touched afterwards. And he said, had been three years and three months, since the bills had returned a kickoff for a touchdown. And of course, DeMars number was number three. It's almost like divine providence came into play there, you know, how often do you feel that as a doctor, divine providence coming in and doing what you'd never expect?

Dr. Holly Andersen 5:52 

Oh, there were things I see that I can't explain scientifically or medically all the time. Both wonderful things. And also when somebody they have a terminal illness, they hang on until their son comes home from the army or something and they get to see him and then and then they pass the next day. So yeah, there's a lot that goes on that we scientists, medical physicians can't explain. You know,

David Novak 6:14 

I read where 92% of cardiac arrest victims don't even make it to the hospital because the people around them don't know what to do. You cited the the basketball player, unfortunately passed away. Obviously, the medical staff knew what to do with Damar. And they resuscitated him with CPR. How do you know when to take that kind of action.

Dr. Holly Andersen 6:33 

You know, when you see someone have a cardiac arrest, they go just like he does, they go from looking perfectly fine to collapsing on the floor totally out. And they're not breathing, they're not responsive, and they start to look not good pretty quickly because there's no blood circulating. So we have reduced saving alive to three easy steps check call, compress, check to see if somebody's breathing responsive, call 911. And begin chest compressions hard and fast in the center of the chest. Every minute, without CPR, the chance of survival goes down by 10%. Within five minutes, brain cells begin to die, within 10 minutes, the chance of survival is virtually zero. So you can't wait for EMS to arrive. And you don't have to be certified. You don't have to do mouth to mouth anymore. And you're not going to get sued because there's good samaritan laws in every state to protect you. And the worst thing you can do is nothing but you can't hurt someone who may die without your help. So we just encourage everybody to learn how at hands only.org In less than a minute, and to understand what cardiac arrest is, and be prepared to save a life and 70% of cardiac arrest victims happen in the home. So if you're going to do it, you're most likely going to do it on someone you love.

David Novak 7:42 

You know? Well, I have to congratulate you, Holly on on the fact that you've launched this movement called hands only CPR. And you know, tell us a bit more about it and the impetus that you had for starting this program.

Dr. Holly Andersen 7:54 

Yeah, well, I am a cardiologist. And I was really sick of resuscitating people brought into our emergency room who had no brain viability, so we could get them back. But we couldn't get their brains back. And I also grew tired of watching whole stadium full of people. There were plenty of soccer victims that had a cardiac arrest and just laid on the field or were carried off the field with whole stadiums not knowing what to do. So it's been a huge kind of mission for me to do this. Because it's the lowest hanging fruit of saving lives. As a cardiologist, we spend hundreds of millions of dollars for a fifth add on drug with somebody with heart disease. And we don't do too much with prevention. So the President, my hospitals, a cardiologist and like Steve, we got to make a video that shows people how to do hands only CPR in less than a minute. And then unfortunately, it became very personal to me because my brother had a cardiac arrest at age 50 After coaching his son's soccer game. And unfortunately, that was when he went in to take a nap at his beach house. So no one was there to see it happen. And unfortunately, he wasn't saved. But the difference between life and death is knowing what to do when we want people to know what to do.

David Novak 9:06 

Interestingly enough, I was talking to Michael Bloomberg today. Oh, you. Yeah. And I told him that I was going to have the opportunity to do this podcast with you. And he said that check call and compress should be as well known as Stop, drop and roll. If you ever catch on fire, you know, what's the biggest challenge you have and trying to get a message like this out to an entire country? You know, it's obviously this is a huge undertaking. It's all

Dr. Holly Andersen 9:31 

in distribution. You know, Michael's Great. Bloomberg Philanthropies been helpful. We blanketed the city, New York City with this message. We've partnered with the Department of Health, the mayor's office, the Giants Broadway, the fashion industry. And we've partnered with the PGA of America because golf courses have the fifth most common place for sudden cardiac arrest and we live on their website and we have a protocol on how to make your golf clubs safe. And we've also partnered with a TNT and we're all lacrosse, the Pebble Beach Pro Am clearly I'm a golfer. So you know, you partner with who you know. But we're working on some more national partnerships. The American Heart Association, you know, is doing some work on this as well. But the reality is, it's 360,000 Americans die every year from this out of the hospital 92% die before making it back to the hospital. And we haven't changed the numbers on that in decades. And I'm all for getting people certified. But that that hasn't changed the numbers. So we really need to get this message out. And I'm working to do it.

David Novak 10:35 

Well, you're working really hard at it. So you're putting together all these presentations and pitches for all these organizations. And you've testified before Congress and and I understand that you've got a trip to the White House coming up. But tell us a little bit about that what you hope to accomplish.

Dr. Holly Andersen 10:50 

We think we have a trip to the White House coming up my other passion professionally is heart disease in women because Women's Heart disease is under researched under diagnosed and undertreated and heart disease and women is the number one cause of death for women in the United States, and now globally. And unfortunately, heart disease deaths due to heart disease is increasing in this country. It's increasing the fastest among young adults. And it's increasing the fastest among young women. And it's not even on their radar screen. And once a woman gets diagnosed with heart disease, she will do worse and be more likely to die from it than a man. So before we retire, we have to move the needle there too, and your Presbyterian Hospital and Ronald Perlman Heart Institute, teamed up with Barbra Streisand and Cedars Sinai in LA and started something called the Women's Heart Alliance, which is cardiologists from all over the country who have joined our mission to decrease the number of women dying from this, and you get an audience when you travel with Barbra Streisand. So it opens, it opens a few doors.

David Novak 11:52 

Besides opening a few doors, what have you learned by being with Barbara, what's really struck you from that experience?

Dr. Holly Andersen 11:59 

What strikes me is that we can get in front of all the female senators and all the female Congress, women and John McCain and the head of the FDA, the head of the CDC and the head of the NIH, we can fly down there and have an audience with them all in one day. But what's important is if you don't do the work beforehand, and you don't do the work afterward, it doesn't matter. You know, it's not just a day in the sun. We did a lot of work beforehand. We did a lot of work afterwards. And we came away with some very big accomplishments. And one of them was that the FDA now has to release something called Clinical Trial snapshots. So we the consumer know who were the participants in either medicines or therapies that got FDA approval. And also, we were very instrumental in getting the DOD, the Department of Defense to fund research and cardiovascular disease and women. It was nice to go down there. It was a really fun day. It was remarkable. I think Barbara is very serious about this. It is her mission. In fact, there's something in cardiology called the Yentl syndrome that was coined by the first female cardiologists, head of the NIH, and that is, a woman doesn't get treated with her heart disease unless she looks like a man with heart disease. And that's kind of Barbara's movie. So there's synchronicity there as well.

David Novak 13:11 

Absolutely. And, you know, it really strikes me that here we are, it's February and in February happens to be Heart Month. But Heart Month pales in comparison to breast cancer awareness month, which is in October. And that seems to be crazy, because more women die of heart disease, as I understand it than all cancers combined. Why are more people talking about this?

Dr. Holly Andersen 13:35 

I think it has to do with the fact that in the 1970s and 1980s, no one talked about breast cancer, it was taboo to talk about until Susie B Coleman, Betty Ford came out and talked about their breast cancer. And now every woman talks about their breast cancer most every woman and they have a huge community to go to. Women don't like talking about the heart disease as much, because they feel like maybe stigmatized that it's considered a man's disease, that they may be judged. And you can go in and have a heart attack or have a stent put in and leave and not tell anybody. So no one knows it. And so women might also just die in their sleep and people attributed to other things. So women are talking about their heart disease. I had took care of a world known female actor who had a heart attack and didn't want to come out and tell anybody about it. Susan Lucci is a patient of mine. She is beautiful, phenomenal, thin, athletic, had basically no risk factors. And she had two stents put in and she's talking about it, and that's what we need. We need more stories when people can tell their stories of heart disease and as you know, stories are important getting the message across. And so we're working on that as well.

David Novak 14:43 

You know, unfortunately, Lisa Marie Presley's death was a big story in the news recently and and I heard you talk about something that really fascinated me which was broken heart syndrome. It can people really die from a broken heart.

Dr. Holly Andersen 14:58 

People can really die. From a broken heart, it was a syndrome that was not even recognized until the 1990s. And it basically the whole heart looks done, it stops beating. And the mechanism is just this whole, basically kind of adrenaline outburst from your body, that stuns the heart. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with the heart. But it's it's done to the heart enough to actually cause a cardiac arrest or make somebody go into terrible heart failure. And if we can support them, and if we can get them through this, then they go on to not even have a footprint trace of any of this happening. But yes, people can die from and now that it's been described, we see it more and more. So it's really important to protect our hearts from too much emotional stress,

David Novak 15:45 

I can totally understand that, you know, and Holly, you're obviously a coveted guest on all the major TV networks, and you're an on air medical consultant. And, you know, I know you had a flurry of requests with the Damar Hamlin event and then Lisa Marie Presley, how do you get prepared to go on TV? And and do you enjoy it?

Dr. Holly Andersen 16:06 

You know, I don't get the prepared very often, because it's usually a newsworthy event, when I do have time to prepare it and I have gone on the morning shows, again, it's very timely, because it's usually around the news. I like it a lot. I think it's really important to get the word out. Because every time we have a chance to talk about heart disease, and sudden cardiac arrest and heart disease and women, and increase people's awareness, and tell them that 80% of this disease is preventable, and to take care of themselves. But also, if you think you're having symptoms to act on them. I think we save lives. So I've always enjoyed it, I've always felt it's important, and I love having the opportunity to do it.

David Novak 16:41 

Well, you do a great job. And you know, I thank you on behalf of the rest of the world building awareness of this issue. Hey, you know, because you're listening to this, I can tell you're the kind of person who wants to learn how to lead well. But there's a lot of companies out there who want to take that desire and charge you $500 or $1,000, or heck, even $20,000 to try and show you how to lead. That's just not right. If you want to be a better leader, I believe you deserve to have access to something that will truly help you. And it shouldn't cost a fortune. So I want you to go to how leaders lead.com and start my leadership class. It's really and truly free. And after you take this class, you're gonna feel more confident in your role, and you'll be on your way to get the big things done with your team. Go check it out at how leaders lead.com

I want to get more into how you lead because you are known for being an outstanding leader. But first, tell us a story from your childhood that that really shaped the kind of leader you are today.

Dr. Holly Andersen 17:52 

I grew up in a as you know, Hamburg, New York, which is a suburb, a large suburb in the snowbelt of Buffalo, New York, and my father was a school teacher. And my grandfather was a principal and my grandmother was a music teacher and organist. And my father was also a swim coach and a football coach. And so I had academics and athletics and music, all stressed to me, my entire life. And I had an overachieving brother who excelled in all three. So I think that despite being from a community in upstate New York, where many people are born and raised and live there, I think I was very lucky to have a family that instilled in me the importance of striving in all areas and the benefits one can read from that.

David Novak 18:36 

You know, when did you have that aha moment, when you said, you just absolutely knew that you wanted to be a doctor.

Dr. Holly Andersen 18:43 

You know, most people know they want to be doctors very early, and I went to Dartmouth and I was really interested in studying the brain and biochemistry and behavior. And to study biochemistry, you have to take organic chemistry. So I was in an organic chemistry class my sophomore year, and about 100 people in the class. And I realized that everybody in the class was going to be a doctor now, like, I could be a doctor, I came to the table late so I actually spent a lot more time probably investigating it there. And I went down to the NIH and was very lucky to work under a doctor who won the Nobel Prize in Medicine studying the brain and central nervous system studies. And we had these amazing scientists from all over the world that were studying in the field, and they would come back and write up their paper. And it was really exciting medical research, and that's right when also the HIV virus was was isolated. And you saw these labs from Paris and, and the NIH collaborating and competing and then in the vet doctor said, look, an MD is a much better education than a PhD, you should just go get an MD because you can take care of patients and work with them and study them. And so I went to medical school and what I found out in medical school is that I love the science but I love taking care of patients and I loved thinking on your feet and I loved combining You know, the science that you know, and translating it into inpatient care. And the you know, the easy part is the science, the hard part is to effectively communicate with your patients and make them understand what they're going through and motivate them to take care of themselves. So that's the ever challenging part. You know, it's fun. And it's important to keep up with the science and be there and be at the top of your game. But the more challenging, actually more fun part is to translate it into clinical medicine and do it for your patients.

David Novak 20:29 

What was it Holly that made you just fall in love with the human heart?

Dr. Holly Andersen 20:33 

So I stopped being into the brain biochemistry because neurologists, they don't get to do much, right. I mean, it's really fascinating. But once you make a diagnosis, there's not much you can do. And I fell in love with cardiology, I fell in love with cardiothoracic surgery, I loved operating on the hearts, most amazing theatrical setting you could possibly be in stopping someone's heart operating on it, and then restarting it, you know, and have them be restored back to health. And I thought about cardiothoracic surgery, but you're in the operating room all day long, which I love but they don't really take care of patients as much we take care of patients we given we work with the cardiothoracic surgeons and the we get them back. So I love following people throughout the course of their life. But I think that Cardiology is the scariest part of medicine, because people can come in dying. And if you miss it, that's the thing they're most likely to die from. So you have to be, you have to be comfortable with that and of stress. And it's so rewarding, though, because people can come in dying, and we can work and do procedures on them and turn them around and have him walk out of the hospital. So to me, that was the most fun, exciting part of it.

David Novak 21:35 

You describe it as fun. You just use the word fun. You just talked about people could die in distress. But you you've been quoted many times saying you went into cardiology because it was fun.

Dr. Holly Andersen 21:45 

It was the most fun for sure. I mean, I think that clearly, you can't get Cavalier, we're used to saving people and we save, you know, thank God, we saved the majority of people. But the losses are tough, and that never gets easy. So you have to make sure you're doing your best job.

David Novak 22:03 

Absolutely. And when you were coming up in your career, Holly, did you have a pivotal moment that really changed the trajectory of your career?

Dr. Holly Andersen 22:11 

You know, when I looked into heart disease in women, I was one of the very, I mean, there aren't that many female practicing cardiologist and when I first started looking into cardiovascular disease, or women, very few people were talking about it. So I got invited as a first year faculty member to give a talk to all cardiothoracic surgeons in the tri state area. And they say, can you talk about the socio economics of treating a female patient with heart disease? And I'm like, Can I just talk about heart disease and woman they're like, Okay, and so I was the youngest faculty member there. I was the only woman and I was talking to a huge audience of cardiothoracic surgeons, and I knew that I was going to get them because I put up the slide that said, of the three major trials from which we learned who should benefit from bypass surgery, of the 2700 people enrolled in those three trials. 47 were women. And I knew they didn't know that and you know, their jaws dropped, and I kind of have them. And the head of cardiothoracic surgery said, you know, Holly, you should really devote part of your career to this, we need to hear this. So that was the first year my career and I respected him a lot. And I did. And it's also been tremendously fun.

David Novak 23:18 

You're not only known for being a great doctor, as I mentioned earlier, you're also a great leader. In fact, you were the second female chief resident in the history of NY Cornell, which is a huge honor. I mean, that's a big honor. Tell me about that role. And all you are responsible for,

Dr. Holly Andersen 23:38 

yeah, the chief resident is picked at the end of our training, or the last year of our training, which in internal medicine is three years. And one of my best characteristics, as far as being a leader is like, this job is so hard, right? I mean, you have to love it, because the hours are unbelievable. And that year, I was on call every third day for 24 hours, but I was really responsible for the whole house stuff for a year. So you really on call 24/7. And you have to motivate people, you know, you have to lead I think here with inspiration and keep reminding doctors and training and doctors around you have what's important. And what's important is patient care. And what's important is learning medicine. And there's nothing more important or fun than that, like, yes, you run into problems and yes, things can distract you. And yes, things happen. But we get to take care of patients, we get to help them and we get to learn about what I think all of us found was incredibly fascinating. So I think it's about, you know, inspiration, optimism, motivating others and reminding him of how lucky we are to get to do this. And it worked. You know, it will work. I think we all had a great time.

David Novak 24:44 

You know, you've said when you're a doctor, it's your duty to educate other doctors and you know, when I think of doctors, this may be unfair, but I think of doctors as being individual contributors. I don't really think of doctors being leaders sharing their knowledge with others? Where did you develop this desire to really reach out and share what you know, with other doctors,

Dr. Holly Andersen 25:09 

you know, the whole medical school education, the whole residency training program, it works on the Socratic method, right? You learn while you're doing it and you teach it, we kind of see you See One, Do One, Teach One, you learn as much as you can. And then your job is to teach fellow residents and younger doctors. And that never stops. You know, I've been on the faculty for a long time. So I taught the second year pathophysiology course, to the medical students, and you're constantly teaching while you're working in the intensive care unit, as you're rounding with patients, so you kind of get used to doing both. You have to kind of think out loud, and you're definitely asking them questions all the time, because people remember things if you ask them questions, which is why we use the Socratic method. But when it comes to preventive cardiology, when it comes to cardiovascular disease, and women when it comes to that part, I think, yeah, it's our duty to teach emergency room doctors and OB GYN doctors and pediatricians and everything else. And I learned from them as well. So I do think it's part of our profession to continually to learn and continue share knowledge, and give back.

David Novak 26:11 

You know, people come from all over the world, celebrities, royalty to get your care as a doctor, describe what it's like to be in a work environment where excellence is so expected. And what are you doing to drive that part of your culture into the rest of the hospital?

Dr. Holly Andersen 26:28 

Well, I'm very lucky to be at a place where there's really excellence across the board. And I love working there. And I love working with the surgeons and the other specialists because I can feel so comfortable sending my friends and colleagues to them and know they're gonna get the best care. We have all people around the world who come to our hospital. And I remember once, when I was an intern, I think Imelda Marcos was my patient, and I was running into see her and then a guard stopped me because because she had guards and again, to be able to talk to anybody about their health care to be able to have them get your trust. And certainly when you're younger, that you have to try harder, I think when you're looking very young and fresh, and you don't have a reputation and you have to work extra hard. I think that the more you're in there, the more confident you get, and you and the better doctor you are. So that comes across as well.

David Novak 27:22 

Well, you're you're still very young, but you have been practicing medicine for 35 years, what's the wildest diagnosis that you ever made?

Dr. Holly Andersen 27:31 

One of them was still in my training one I remember. And that was I was in the cardiac intensive care unit on call at night. And I noticed this patient who everything looked fine on him, but he didn't look right to me, like all his numbers look fine. He said he was fine. He did not look right to me. And I started watching much more closely. And I noted on his monitor that his rhythm started looking funny. So I did an EKG on him. And he had something where the EKG was telling me that his heart was kind of bobbing around in his chest. And that's something called cardiac tamponade, where there is fluid building up around the heart, and it can build up so much that it just totally collapses the heart. And it's a medical emergency. And that's what I thought he had. So I kind of jumped on him. And what I did is like underneath his ribs, I put a needle into his heart to extract the fluid. And what you want to see when you go in there is clear fluid, because you know, then do you have the fluid that's surrounding his heart that's compressing it. And when I went in, it was bloody fluid. And you're like hoping that you didn't just go through the heart. And by the way, right when I was starting to do this, he was crashing, right, his blood pressure was going down, his heart rate was going up. And as I pulled out all this fluid, all of a sudden, you know, he looked fine, his blood pressure came up, you know, everything stabilized. So it was one of those times where you had to trust your instincts. And I didn't really have other people around, but I got them there very quickly then, and we saved him because he would have died otherwise. So that kind of sticks in my mind. Because again, you know, you can know all the medicine, but you have to kind of trust your instincts and act on them. I'm just glad I was right.

David Novak 29:11 

Well speaking that over the years, I'm sure with all the diagnoses that you've had to do you. I'm sure you've missed it at some point in time and everybody in your field misses at some point in time. And when you do that, as you mentioned, the stakes can't be any higher. How do you coach yourself and your team to think about this and to work through failure?

Dr. Holly Andersen 29:33 

Well, as you know, you learn the most from your failures, right? You learn the most when things go wrong, not when things go right. And so when something does go wrong, and it does, you have to go over it with a fine tooth comb and learn as much as you can from it. And that's how I get young doctors through it who might be terribly, terribly emotionally upset, maybe wanting to quit medicine. And you say look, we've all been through it. We all make mistakes. We all learn from mistakes. And we learn the most from our mistakes. And we learn the most from our disasters. I remember the face, I remember the name of a woman came in when I was a resident in the emergency room, and she came in looking like the ammonia and sounded like pneumonia and the chest X ray, that all seemed like it was pneumonia. So we treated her for pneumonia, and she died from a heart attack because it was a heart attack. And I still remember missing that one. And, yeah, you know, the losses aren't easy. But you have to know, to learn the most from them. I also remember having a great resume in the ICU, and she told me at the end of the year, she goes, I'm gonna go into radiology, and I'm like, What, you're gonna go into radiology, you're so good, because I go home and cry every night before bed. I'm like, You should go into radiology. So you know, it's not for everybody.

David Novak 30:48 

In you mentioned this, at some point, every leader has to deliver bad news. It's just part of the job of every leader. How do you show up in those moments? And can you share with us one of the most challenging messages you've had to deliver?

Dr. Holly Andersen 31:03 

Well, one is, um, to other doctors. So when you are in charge of other doctors and taking care of them, and clearly, somebody is not performing to the level they should, we tend to be very supportive and get time, you know, give a lot of supervision and a lot of support in medicine. But yeah, I had, I had to sit down and talk to somebody that we had to leave our residency program. And a lot of that, you know, you just have to be honest, and you have to, again, we put patients, first you have to think of patients. And in this profession you need to have we need to graduate doctors, we need to train doctors who we feel comfortable putting out there in the world, to do a wonderful job and taking care of patients. And despite the investment, not everybody can do that. Not everybody should do that.

David Novak 31:50 

You remember, Holly the first time you had to tell a patient's family that their loved one had passed? And what did you learn from that?

Dr. Holly Andersen 31:58 

I don't mind doing it. Because I feel like I can be pretty honest and strong doing it. It's very, it's very painful and very emotional. But you have to be so present, you have to be there for them. And you have to be there and tell them exactly what happened and tell them you did everything. And sometimes cry with them. And know that, you know, you're going to continue to support them. What I think is difficult is that you spend your time doing that. And then you have to go back into the next patient's room and be there for them. I was on the phone once when I was talking to a wife of my patient. And you know, he was this famous chef, and he arrested at home and she's talking me on the phone well, where I heard EMS was working on him. And they were trying to get him back. And I knew at some point, they weren't getting him back. And I'm on the call with his wife and the guys like 38 years old with five kids. And she was crawling and I was crying. And I you know, I had to hang up and go and see the next patient that was there and just be there for them. That's hard.

David Novak 33:00 

Yeah, I can only imagine, you know, you know, I talked to a mutual friend of ours, Bill acquavella. And, you know, he's a renowned art dealer who's been a guest on this podcast. And, and Bill said that there's no one more empathetic and compassionate than you. Where do you think this really comes from Ali? And how do you spread those behaviors to the people around you?

Dr. Holly Andersen 33:26 

Well, first of all, Bill is one of my favorite people ever. He's the best, I can be pretty tough and competition too. So I have a game face. But you know, I was very lucky to have a very affectionate loving mother and very warm and affectionate and caring grandparents, my mother's parents, and I think that it's okay, this is a human job. We're not supposed to be robots, you know, distant and communicating things in a non a non personal way. I mean, this is the most human job there is. And I think that's wonderful about it. And, you know, if you're going to be getting emotionally involved with your patients, which I don't know how you're not, then you're setting yourself up to some pain, but that's the only way I know how to do it. And it's been so rewarding.

David Novak 34:14 

Well, bill's not the only one who feels that you're compassionate. I'm sure all your patients feel that way. In fact, one of your patients, the famous poet, Frederick Seidel, wrote a poem entitled for Holly Anderson. And here's a couple of the verses. She lost a very sick patient she especially cared about the man died on the table. It wasn't a matter of feeling any guilt or doubt, something about a doctor who can cure or anyway try, but can also cry. What does that poem mean to you?

Dr. Holly Andersen 34:49 

I love Fred Seidel. I think that he saw in me especially probably what prompted right that that yeah, it's more than just a job and that you're involved. I'm on every level, personally and professionally and scientifically. And yeah, that's what makes it kind of beautiful to,

David Novak 35:07 

you know, I even heard that you've made special arrangements for one of your patients to watch his daughter's wedding by video in the hospital room when he couldn't be there and held his hand while his daughter walked down the aisle. Tell us that story.

Dr. Holly Andersen 35:23 

Oh, boy, this guy. He was having such a horrible year of surgery after surgery to try to save his leg. And it was quite complicated. And his wife, she never left her husband's side, she finally was going to leave to go to her daughter's wedding. And he went back into another emergent surgery. And I said, like, Look, you go, I'm gonna stay here with him. And I actually was the only time I can't tell my patients that afternoon. I like you went to the operating room with him. I came out that was a Friday. Here. It was Saturday, he's gonna miss his daughter's wedding. And yeah, we got the hospital to set up. And it was not just to see it was back and forth. So she got to talk to them, and they got to talk to him. And yeah, that was a very special important moment.

David Novak 36:13 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Dr. Holly Anderson in just a moment. You know, Holly is so empathetic, she can naturally just put herself in another person's shoes. For other people. Empathy doesn't come as naturally. But it's a vital leadership skill, because we just can't lead well if we don't understand other people's viewpoints and how they're feeling. Fortunately, empathy is a skill that you can develop. That's a big takeaway I got when I spoke with Johnny Taylor, the President and CEO of Sherm, the Society for Human Resource Management.

Johnny Taylor 36:49 

We did some research just recently at Sherm 93% of employees said they would leave a job that they like, okay, a job where I'm perfectly fine to go work for a more empathetic organization. So if that doesn't make the case, that this empathy is a business imperative, and not just a few good moral imperative? I don't know what does.

David Novak 37:11 

Johnny has a lot of practical ideas for how you can develop more empathy and build a stronger team. Go check it out, Episode 52, here on how leaders lead.

Shifting gears a little bit here, how do you get stubborn patients to do what you want them to do?

Dr. Holly Andersen 37:32 

I don't always right. I mean, I once had this guy, like I remember he had a heart attack, he had a stroke on Mother's Day, because I remember this. And I spoke to him for years, he sat on the computer, and I ate ice cream, basically, all day long. And his wife came in and she was this beautiful, you know, well kept fit woman. And finally she came to see me as a patient. I'm like, you know, your husband's bad behavior might not kill him, but I could tell it's killing you. But I think the trick is, how do you motivate somebody to take care of themselves, you have to find out what drives them, right? Maybe they're trying to stay alive for their grandchild's wedding, maybe they're just trying to, you know, bend over to tie their shoe. I mean, I think that I take care of some of the luckiest people in the world. And they have no idea. They're lucky. So I try to also impress upon them that yes, they might be suffering from such and such and such. But I said, like, come round with me in the hospital, because some of those people are not leaving that hospital need kill, to be in your shoes that you're complaining about all day long. So I can be I can be pretty tough my patients, I'll do whatever it takes to motivate them. By the way, it's also so rewarding because I get the best feedback from my patients too. And you know, and they're grateful and they share stories with me of their success stories. And that's really important to me, too.

David Novak 38:46 

What's something when you look back, Holly, something that you've learned from one of your patients that's had one of the biggest impacts on you,

Dr. Holly Andersen 38:54 

one of my patients who is a pretty well known actress, she said, every day I get up, I look myself in the mirror and I say, I forgive you. No matter what happens, no matter what you do, I think you got to forgive yourself and move on and learn from it. So that was motivating. But I get to learn so much from my patients. You know, I sit there, I mean, it's like the being in the front row of the theater of life. And I really, I've learned Irving Penn, you know, was talking to me about how we he does photographs and and what he thinks about and Andre Previn has talked to me about how he's composed. And Sophia Loren shared some recipes with me. I mean, I think I also I had this woman, and she and her two sisters and cousins were in Auschwitz. They were on three death marches. If one of them got separated, the one had to go find the three not vice versa. And then how she met her husband in the detention camp after the war, and then she got married in a wedding dress made out of a German parachute. And that wedding dress is now in the the Jewish Museum and So, I learned so much about the world, from my patients. And it's always so fascinating. I feel so lucky and grateful to be doing what I'm doing. You know, I'll

David Novak 40:10 

tell you something, Holly, you know, we've talked about this with your hands only movement, you know how to bring awareness to what you're doing. And that's a skill that every leader needs to learn how to do, what can you share on this front that other leaders can apply? Whatever it is that they're trying to make happen in the world.

Dr. Holly Andersen 40:28 

You know, I think you got to be passionate about it. I think you got to love what you're doing. If you're passionate about a message, you find a way to make it work. And we're all busy. But if you're busy doing things you don't like, then you're busy and unhappy. But if you find things that are important, and these things are important to me, then you find ways to get them done. And you find people who are also willing to help you get these done, and I've had so many fantastic, you know, Nicole Kidman was the first person to help me with the hands only CPR campaign because you know, her father died of sudden cardiac arrest, having lunch with her sister, and he probably shouldn't have died if someone knew what to do in the restaurant. And so so many people are touched by this and so many people are willing to help you that I think if you're motivated to get things done, doors open, but I gotta get more done

David Novak 41:12 

yet. Well, I'm sure you will, you know, and to truly have an impact as leaders, we have to stay healthy. And I'd like you to get super practical with this for a minute here. Being at heart disease is the number one cause of death. What can we do to avoid this?

Dr. Holly Andersen 41:28 

You know, I think it goes back to what your grandmother told you get a good night's sleep, sleep is under appreciated, sleep is so important. Get a good night's sleep, eat your fruits and vegetables have a diet that's replete with whole foods, particularly a lot of plants, the Mediterranean diet, be physically active, you know, go outside, run around, play with your friends, physical activity is the fountain of youth do something get your heart rate up, but it's not just okay to exercise for 45 minutes. Be active in your non exercise time. It's not okay to sit in front of a computer all day long. Prolonged sitting predicts cardiovascular risk and survival. Get up and move and yes, get your blood pressure, get your sugar, get your lipids checked, we can help you with that. But the more I'm a preventive cardiologist, the more I really also believe that what we choose to think about directly impacts everything about our health. So I think that people who are able to see part of the glass that's half full, people who are grateful people who have a sense of humor, live longer, and are happier than people who don't.

David Novak 42:27 

I've also heard you say focus on your waistline, not your weight. Why is that? And and I've also heard you say that having that sense of humor you just mentioned leads to a healthier way of life. Talk about those two things.

Dr. Holly Andersen 42:39 

Yeah, so the fat around your waist is metabolically active, and it will make your blood pressure higher it is make your sugar levels worse, it is pro inflammatory. And inflammation is the gateway to disease, heart disease, brain disease, and cancer. So anything that you can do to make your waistline less is going to make you healthier with respect to all of those things. But liposuction doesn't count because it's the fat around your organs. That's bad, not underneath your skin. So yeah, that's much more important measure, I think then your overall weight. And yeah, we've we've shown that studies, you know, the healthy parts of laughter, laughter has been linked to the healthy function of blood vessels such that like 10 minutes of laughter is equivalent to 20 minutes of aerobic physical activity. And that's just respect to you know, your your blood vessels and heart rate. Clearly, we know a lot more is going on when we laugh, there are cancer clinics that start laughing sessions just because it's so healthy. So yeah, having a sense of humor, being able to not take everything too seriously. Being grateful, hugely important with respect to our health.

David Novak 43:44 

You worked alongside a noted cardiologist the late Isidore, Rosenfield, who was whose father in law actually came up with the first stress test. Describe that relationship and what did you learn from him?

Dr. Holly Andersen 43:55 

What I learned from him, you know, he was quite a bit older than I and I was his fourth and final partner. I think I had a natural tendency to be this way anyway, but he certainly advanced it to treat your patients like they're human, to have fun, you know, to be humorous to joke around when you can with them. And he was famous, he had Danny Kaye one time was his patient, he had Danny Kaye dress up as a doctor and put a really like gloves on and had a really long needle and sent Danny k into a patient's room with this huge needle. So, you know, one time my son was coming home from preschool, you know, used to stop by my office and see me and he was like, you know, three feet tall, and I had a little white coat for him. So I put a stethoscope on him, I put a white coat on and I sent him into one of my patients expecting to see me. And you know, she just roared with laughter. So, I think you know, to be human to joke around and to be also, you know, put your hand on their arm when they're going through something. It's okay to just be there comforting them in in a very human way. And so, he would come in the middle of the day, knock on my door and say, Excuse me, can I borrow Dr. Anderson a little bit and they had me come out nice. Like, I gotta tell you this joke I heard. So in the middle of a very busy day when you're pulled in 1000 directions, and you're just trying to get through the next patient, he never had trouble stopping to have a good laugh or enjoying his day. And I think I think that's why he was there practicing for as long as he was. And I think that's important. You know, you have to be enjoying the moment not just thinking about the future.

David Novak 45:19 

He wrote a book called Live Now age later. What do you mean by that?

Dr. Holly Andersen 45:23 

Yeah, I think that you have to live in the present, take care of yourself now. And a lot of that book is also about preventive cardiology and preventive medicine, what you can do to stay young and feel good. And yeah, put off aging till later. And it's a mindset to right. Mr. Club champion at your age. I mean, you're like a big kid. And I love your laugh. And I think that's so healthy. So yeah, live now. Ah, later. I love that.

David Novak 45:48 

You know, oh, this has been so much fun. I want to have some more with my lightning round of q&a. Are you ready for this?

Dr. Holly Andersen 45:54 

Oh, yeah, I'm ready. All right.

David Novak 45:57 

What's one word others would use to describe you? Energetic? What would you say is the one word that best describes you? optimistic? If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be and why?

Dr. Holly Andersen 46:11 

I think it would be Cleopatra. I mean, nine languages, she rolled over eight countries, she seduced to emperors with her intellect and charm. It would have been an amazing, interesting time period to live.

David Novak 46:25 

Your biggest pet peeve. Gossip. Do you have a daily ritual you couldn't live without?

Dr. Holly Andersen 46:33 

I do now. And that is I meditate every morning. And I'm since COVID. I've journaled every morning. And I found that so insightful, and it's helped me grow. And I stretch and I do some core work every morning. So yeah, that's my new routine. And it's great.

David Novak 46:51 

No, I know your husband, Doug, is a great friend is an avid golfer as well, who be too.

Dr. Holly Andersen 46:59 

Oh, it's so fun to have competition with Doug. And I think that right now I'm beating him a little bit more often. But I would say we played in the husband and wife yesterday, and we're still married. So that's a good thing.

David Novak 47:10 

What's harder cardiology or golf?

Dr. Holly Andersen 47:13 

Golf, you know, when I was playing a lot of golf back in the day, because I don't you know, with being a mother of two, I didn't get to compete as much. But when I was somebody asked me once, you know, where do you practice seriously? They said, where do you practice? And I said, Hudson, national. And they were clearly talking about medicine. And I was talking about golf. But golf is definitely harder if I was just inconsistent in cardiology to say I'm a golf and I I'd

David Novak 47:36 

be in jail. Do you have a hidden talent?

Dr. Holly Andersen 47:39 

I used to play the violin. So I'm still I'm pretty musical. And sing and play a little bit piano. Probably not too many people know that

David Novak 47:46 

your most treasured gift from a patient. I had a

Dr. Holly Andersen 47:49 

guy who is a composer. And he was probably 80 years old. He wrote a concerto for me by hand. He came into my office on Valentine's Day with his handwritten concerto dedicated to me, and flowers. And he had a younger friend bring him in. So that was probably the most romantic, amazing gift. I also had Irving Penn gift me a photograph that I so admired. And I was so touched by that because I know that's not something he ever gets involved with. But I was so touched by that as well.

David Novak 48:19 

If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? You probably hear

Dr. Holly Andersen 48:23 

audiobooks. I like nonfiction, biographies, Catherine the Great, the splendid and the vile. I also am getting into philosophy a little bit down to Chang and physics. But I'm eclectic music taste to Peter Gabriel, David Byrne, Led Zeppelin Stravinsky. So any combination of that?

David Novak 48:43 

What's something about you that few people would know? Yeah, I

Dr. Holly Andersen 48:46 

think few people would know that. I'm, I'm also a physics nerd. And I think quantum physics right now is so fascinating.

David Novak 48:53 

Okay, that's the end of the lightning round. And just a few more questions. We'll wrap this up. I understand you once won a Club Championship in golf, and you were eight and a half months pregnant is is that really true? Or is that folklore?

Dr. Holly Andersen 49:06 

Oh, it's absolutely true. It was the hottest summer in the middle of August. But you know, it's actually it's not that hard to play golf pregnant because it happens slowly. And you have a big, you know, center of gravity and you can make a good rotation. And I had a nice co pilot with me. And I had lost to this woman three years in a row. So there's no way she was going to be four years in a row. So it didn't matter if I was pregnant or not. It's just hard to play golf after you deliver. But that was a thrill.

David Novak 49:31 

Yeah, well, I'm glad your child didn't kick while you were in the midst of a big butt there. You don't. Now, as you mentioned, you'd lost to the same person for three straight years. And you'd lost to this person in the finals. What had to shift mentally for you to get on top.

Dr. Holly Andersen 49:48 

Well, the first year she was much better golfer than I was for sure. But you know, that's what's so great about competition because it's so painful to lose, that it makes you become better, right? So you work on it more. I mean, I I think I remember every single hole that I played, when I lost to her, I don't remember all what I won. But when I lost her, I remember everything. So I think I lost on 14 or 15 the first time and then I lost on 17. And then I lost on 18. And so I just knew that next year, I was coming, I just knew I was going to win, I just was confident, I think you have to have confidence when you're playing, you know, you have to have confidence on those tough Short Shots. And I had confidence that day. And it was so fun. I think I got around, and 15. And it was a fun day.

David Novak 50:34 

You're like every sick golfer, you remember all those holes, you know, just down to the last detail, you know. Now, in addition to everything that you're doing in the heart world, you're on the board of the Michael J. Fox Foundation for Parkinson's research. How do you lead with hope, when you're up against the disease that hasn't been cured yet?

Dr. Holly Andersen 50:54 

Because I think we're making so many great strides and our successes are have translated into other things. So when we first when I first joined the board of the Michael J. Fox Foundation, we thought Parkinson's disease was this pretty simple disease where one cell line in something called the substantia nigra in the brain dies. And if we could figure out how to replace this one cell or what it makes, then we cure Parkinson's, we were so naive, the more we learned, the more difficult it became. So now, now we know that it's much more like Alzheimer's disease in that Parkinson's patients make a protein that stays inside the cells that kind of mux things up. But we have understood the pathophysiology of that much better. Our strides have helped other neurodegenerative disease, we organized Michael J. Fox Foundation is organized Parkinson's research across the world. And so and also, we set up a model where we call for research to give us their ideas, and then we give them money. And then we hear back from them in a real time, like 366 months, 12 months later to see how they're doing. And if they're doing well, we give them more money. And if they're not doing well, we either help them when we stop the money. So we are sharing this information, real time with every other scientific researcher in the world. And that's really transformed things. And like forward the progress and right now we have some really exciting drugs in the pipeline, and we didn't have any in the past. So we're very excited about what's going on, then we're, we're very excited and very enthusiastic, and the momentum is just picking up.

David Novak 52:24 

That's fantastic. And, you know, Holly, with all the things that you have going on in your life, I know that your family is number one in your life. And I'm not just saying that I mean that it is number one in your life. How have you kept your family your top priority while you're juggling such a successful career where you have all kinds of demands and so much responsibility and what you do,

Dr. Holly Andersen 52:46 

I think you just you have to be present. You know, my kids are both in college now. But when they, they were home, I would get home and spend as much time as I could with them. We go out at night we go out on the weekends, we traveled together, I have had so much fun being with my kids I I learned how to surf with my son has helped my golf game one bit, but we had so much fun on you know, going out to surf. My son said something to me last year that was really touching. He said, you know, Mom, I'm in college. Now, everybody always asked me about mom being a doctor. And they're saying like, they just expected me to say that, you know, you were not, you weren't around as much. And you know, you were always around, you're always around. So that was that made me feel great.

David Novak 53:25 

That's great. I love that. You know, when you when you think about cardiology and in the next five to 10 years, what's going to be possible that isn't today.

Dr. Holly Andersen 53:35 

You know what we do today for typical coronary artery diseases, we bypass the disease, and we stent, the disease, right? Those are mechanical fixes of a blockage, a mechanical problem, but it doesn't at all change the disease. But we're getting much better at drug therapies to try to melt that atherosclerotic plaque those blockages in the arteries that supply the heart with blood. And some of the new technologies are based on genetic research. And right now we have a drug that you may have heard of some of your on Repatha, which is a PCS canine inhibitor for cholesterol lowering, which does dramatic amounts of preventing this disease and causing regression of the disease. But now with something called small interfering messenger RNA drugs, which people are aware of because of the vaccines, but using that technology, we're now able to have the same result of huge cholesterol lipid lowering by a twice a year injection. So if we can make therapy that easy to melt away this terrible disease, I think we're gonna have tremendous strides and you know, cardiologists are the plumbers and electricians of medicine and that's the plumbing part on the electrical part, our understanding of electrical parts in the heart, and our ability to manipulate it is also changing and, you know, we're gonna be able to fix rhythms of people that we haven't been able to in a much easier way. So cardiac He continues to be incredibly exciting field of medicine to be in because of the scientific advances.

David Novak 55:05 

If you could go back all Yeah, and you've had to celebrate a career, but what would you tell your younger self,

Dr. Holly Andersen 55:11 

I would tell myself to enjoy the moment more, and enjoy the beauty before you and then now more and be present, instead of always working so hard to achieve to get to some future goal. I think that's important. I still tell myself that No. So I think that's words of advice to younger people, I have so many stressed younger people that come into my office, and sometimes I just say to them, like, you know, don't take life so seriously, and they look at me, but I think it gives them a little bit of reassurance, especially coming from someone who is in such a serious job.

David Novak 55:46 

So Holly, what would be one piece of advice you would give to aspiring leaders,

Dr. Holly Andersen 55:51 

I think, communicate, communicate your mission, communicate your, your message, do so with optimism and enthusiasm. Tell the truth. Be honest. And learn as much as you can, from everybody around from the lowest person to the highest person in your company, listen, learn from them, and recognize them.

David Novak 56:12 

If you could Holly, I'd like to close this podcast out with a story that would really highlight why it is that you do all that you do.

Dr. Holly Andersen 56:21 

I took care of this woman for years trying to take care of her heart, fixing the blood pressure, fixing the blockages giving her all the medicines, we had to treat her heart and her heart just kept failing. And and we couldn't get it better, and we couldn't get it better. And sometimes we don't. But this woman was otherwise so alive. And with it. She was only 70 years old. She had a family, she had children. And she wanted to live so much. And she was in the intensive care unit. And we were doing everything we can to kind of restore her heart. And then we transfer her up to Columbia University where we have a heart transplant program. And I didn't know if I'd ever see her again, because she was really so sick. And she went up there. And she got a heart. And I remember the day, she walked back into my office, and she walked back in and she was dressed and she was living. And she brought her son and just to introduce her son to me. And she said like, I want you to meet Dr. Anderson. This is the woman that saved my life. And she was she's back with her family. And that that was such a thrilling, important moment to have her walk in that room after we'd been through so much.

David Novak 57:28 

Well, Holly, I have to tell you, I've done a lot of podcasts. And I've talked to a lot of leaders. But I have never talked to someone that is multi talented as you I mean, you've touched so many different things in such a powerful way. It's just amazing. You know, there, there's a Superman and you are the Wonder Woman there's no doubt about it. So I want to thank you so much for being on this podcast. Well, David,

Dr. Holly Andersen 57:53 

you're very kind and I love your podcast. I think how leaders lead is fantastic and and thank you for all you do and you've done and your wife Wendy to and how much work and how much how charitable you are with your lives and your good fortune. So it's been my pleasure.

David Novak 58:17 

Well, there's no doubt about it. Holly is a phenomenal person. And her leadership is literally saving lives. She's so passionate about these vital issues of cardiac arrest treatment and women's heart health. And it's the kind of genuine passion that only comes when you really understand the depths of the problem. And you can empathize with the people who experience it. Here's the thing. People are drawn to passionate leaders. And when you can bring genuine understanding and empathy to a mission, people are gonna follow you. So this week, I really want you to think about and tune into what you're really passionate about what problems really trouble you what kicks your empathy into overdrive. Tune into those passions big and small, nurture them. That's how you're really going to get others on board with you and make big things happen. And hey, there's one more thing I want you to do. I really want you to learn the three C's of hands only CPR, check, call compress, it only takes you 30 seconds and it can save a life. I'll make sure we link to the YouTube video in the show notes. Or you can just go to hands only.org And watch the video there. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders use passion to drive change. Coming up next on how leaders lead is get this the one and only Dr. Condoleezza Rice

Condoleezza Rice 59:45 

important thing in leadership is to recognize leadership characteristics and other people. It's the same if you're a CEO, it's the same if you're a university leader, it's the same if you're in government, you have to inspire others to lead so be sure to

David Novak 59:59 

come back back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be